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Date:	12/20/99 8:29:46 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, December 20 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1535<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Re Early TNE<BR>
Re: the north american union<BR>
Re: Marooned (MegaT)<BR>
Re: Thunder Child (was re: They're coming (again))<BR>
Re: Why you need streetwise...<BR>
Re: the north american union<BR>
Re: [OT] Firearms Discussions<BR>
Re: Why you need streetwise...<BR>
Asteroid Mining (Was: Re: Mars exploration)<BR>
Re: Asteroid Mining (Was: Re: Mars exploration)<BR>
Re: the north american union<BR>
No-Firearms Situations<BR>
OT<BR>
Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)...<BR>
Re: Gun Control<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: the north american union<BR>
United States<BR>
War of 1812 (now w/ ObTrav!)<BR>
Re: Wild Geese, a mercenary ticket<BR>
Re: War of 1812 (now w/ ObTrav!)<BR>
RE: the north american union<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:29:21 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Early TNE<BR>
<BR>
On 19 Dec 99, at 18:39, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 12/20/99 at 12:12 AM,  "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>>I remember that BL's techbook layout was easier for me to follow than<BR>
> >>>FF&S when it finally shipped...<BR>
> <BR>
> >>Absolutely.  That's sort of why I thought it would have been after FFS,<BR>
> >>improved from the experience and all.<BR>
> <BR>
> >I think it was mainly because BL was only concerned with ships, so they<BR>
> >worked it though step by step. <BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, that's true too. It does make it easier to follow.<BR>
> <BR>
> >It could have been done better, but it would probably have been a bigger<BR>
> >book.<BR>
<BR>
I got hold of BL before FFS and found it (BL) to be quite hard to <BR>
follow. When I finally got FFS I was very pleased to find it much <BR>
easier to use. I found having each component in its own chapter very <BR>
useful, as I could do things in any order I liked. However the page <BR>
flipping is a little annoying.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:29:21 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: the north american union<BR>
<BR>
On 20 Dec 99, at 20:16, Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> >  >Remember the War of 1812? The USA _lost_. It will<BR>
> >  >again!<BR>
> ><BR>
> >     The Museum at West Point disagrees, or at least they put a better<BR>
> >     spin<BR>
> > on it.<BR>
> > The section on the War of 1812 starts off, "At best, this war could be<BR>
> > called a draw."<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, they would, wouldn't they ?<BR>
> <BR>
> Seeing as the US instigated the war, invaded Canada, got thrown out again,<BR>
> and a Brit force then ravaged up and down the east coast unchecked,<BR>
> sacking Washington twice, before finally being stopped at New Orleans<BR>
> after peace had been declared, I'd call it a loss for the US.<BR>
> <BR>
> The only bright points for the US is that some of their ships did better<BR>
> than anyone could have expected against the Royal Navy,  and the New York<BR>
> Militia went home, citing that using militia to invade another country was<BR>
> a gross abuse of the founding documents of the country, which it was.<BR>
> <BR>
> Of course, they only did this after it became obvious they weren't going<BR>
> to get much loot & pillage, but still...<BR>
> <BR>
> What was that about a "well-regulated militia" ? <grin><BR>
<BR>
I dunno. The US Federal Government came out alright - they gained the <BR>
power to raise troops. Otherwise it was a draw, in that the peace <BR>
treaty set everything back to pre-war borders, etc. However the indians <BR>
lost fairly heavily (nothing new there).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:29:21 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Marooned (MegaT)<BR>
<BR>
On 19 Dec 99, at 23:40, Richard Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Hmmm.. The Inupiaq have been successfully hunting Polar Bears with<BR>
> 30-06 for many years, and spears or bows before that.... It is not the<BR>
> caliber but the ability to hit the bear at the right place. Another<BR>
> native, a Brother in Law of mine, frequently hunts bears with a .357 mag<BR>
> revolver. A friend who once went hunting Kodiak brown bears with a .458<BR>
> Win Mag failed to stop one charging after placing 5 rounds in it. His<BR>
> hunting partner literally dropped the beast at his feet with several<BR>
> additional rounds from a .375 H&H. This guy was an experienced hunter, of<BR>
> both wildlife and people (3 term Vietnam vet with 101st, tunnel rat,<BR>
> etc...), but the first shot did not score the right hit. Makes you<BR>
> wonder....  <BR>
<BR>
That's why I was advocating a .338 (at least) - it was for defense, not <BR>
hunting. When arming yourself for defense you're generally going to <BR>
want somthing a bit bigger than you'd use to hunt the same thing with. <BR>
When hunting you get to choose the shot, when being hunted they do.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:29:21 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Thunder Child (was re: They're coming (again))<BR>
<BR>
On 20 Dec 99, at 22:59, Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > > That is, assuming they could be crewed and put to sea on time. The<BR>
> > > whole idea of 24-hour readiness for military units not in hostile<BR>
> > > terrain<BR>
> didn't<BR>
> > > catch on until much later.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > It still hasn't caught on everywhere. I shudder to think how long it'd<BR>
> > take some of our units to be combat ready.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hah !<BR>
> <BR>
> That remins me of a "special mission" I got sent on when in the RNZAF.<BR>
> <BR>
> Remember when "Colonel" Rambuka took over Fiji ?<BR>
<BR>
All too well. I was in basic training at the time, and if Lange had <BR>
actually lost his mind we'd have been in right after the RRF. Given the <BR>
relative size of our RRF (plus the rest) and the Fijian army we were <BR>
rather happy when nothing eventuated.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:05:48 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Why you need streetwise...<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> Has anyone put their players in a "Enter the Dragon" type situation?<BR>
> i.e. No firearms, no lasers.<BR>
> Strict hand-to-hand and limited melee weapons?<BR>
<BR>
I've had the PCs making a run for it from a hotel near a starport,<BR>
having members of a local gang chasing them. The laws of the area<BR>
stopped them from bringing their weapons to the hotel, so they had no<BR>
guns with them. Very entertaining action scene, since the players had to<BR>
think in order to succeed.<BR>
<BR>
"I dodge around the corner and look for something to hide behind. When<BR>
they rush past me, I'll jump out and go the other way."<BR>
<BR>
> hmmm...I guess most bar fights count.<BR>
<BR>
In that case, I think the answer for most of us would be YES!  :-)<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:19:09 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: the north american union<BR>
<BR>
At 01:53 AM 12/20/99 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 12/19/99 7:40:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
>eclipse@ultranet.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
><< The Museum at West Point disagrees, or at least they put a better spin <BR>
> on it.<BR>
> The section on the War of 1812 starts off, "At best, this war could be <BR>
> called a draw." >><BR>
><BR>
>I agree. Our regulars could go toe to toe with the Grenadier Guards. <BR>
>Unfortunately, our army was mostly militia, and militia that was horrid to <BR>
>boot...:-(<BR>
><BR>
        The Battle of Montreal pretty much under-lines that the US forces<BR>
were poorly trained and led by inexperienced officers.<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:28:59 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Firearms Discussions<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So the more reactionary of us went out got some tee-shirts printed saying<BR>
>"Land Rights for Gay Whales" with an appropriate picture of very camp beached<BR>
>whale.<BR>
><BR>
>It's amazing how many people thought we were serious....<BR>
<BR>
Here in Norway a popular t-shirt reads "Intelligent people, need intelligent<BR>
food. Kill the whales'. It is accompanied by a viking standing atop a dead<BR>
whale. My cousine wore this t-shirt while attending UCSB and got into trouble<BR>
more than once.<BR>
<BR>
As you may or may not know, Norway is still hunting whales.<BR>
<BR>
OBTrav: A low-tech world gets incorperated into the Imperium, who tells<BR>
        the natives that they have to stop killing those big sea mammals,<BR>
        cause their sentient. The locals refuse stating that it is their<BR>
        source of food and a long standing tradition. The characters<BR>
	are approached by a patron. <BR>
<BR>
	1. He is a local out to hire the group to protect local hunting<BR>
           vessel from the harasment of off world sentient-rights-groups<BR>
           demonstrating as the sesonal hunt begins.<BR>
        2. She is a member of a extrem sentient-rights-group that <BR>
           wants to hire the group to sabotage the hunting vessels <BR>
           and the proecessing plants. <BR>
	3. She is a reporter needing bodyguards to do a story about<BR>
           the hunting. She might be pro- or against it and will<BR>
           make a very biased story. Will the group help her?<BR>
<BR>
Just an idea :-)<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:33:50 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Why you need streetwise...<BR>
<BR>
At 01:05 PM 12/20/99 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
>> Has anyone put their players in a "Enter the Dragon" type situation?<BR>
>> i.e. No firearms, no lasers.<BR>
>> Strict hand-to-hand and limited melee weapons?<BR>
><BR>
>I've had the PCs making a run for it from a hotel near a starport,<BR>
>having members of a local gang chasing them. The laws of the area<BR>
>stopped them from bringing their weapons to the hotel, so they had no<BR>
>guns with them. Very entertaining action scene, since the players had to<BR>
>think in order to succeed.<BR>
><BR>
>"I dodge around the corner and look for something to hide behind. When<BR>
>they rush past me, I'll jump out and go the other way."<BR>
><BR>
        Hi, Jens!<BR>
<BR>
        I count the odds of persecution for killing someone (legality of<BR>
action to be debated in court) as (Law Level + 1) x2 on 2d.  It takes Law<BR>
Level dice in weeks to get a trial, with a chance equivalent to law level on<BR>
2d that you'll be in house arrest or worse until the trial.<BR>
<BR>
        My players would generally *rather* use brawling and a set of<BR>
nuchaku or a tonfa to put someone down rather than a handgun....  You can<BR>
stop damaging them far more easily and are less likely to kill someone on "a<BR>
really good roll" with one hit.  Fewer things screw up the odds of making<BR>
the bank payments faster than getting placed in jail for 54 weeks while<BR>
awaiting trial so that you don't skip the planet.<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 04:54:28 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Asteroid Mining (Was: Re: Mars exploration)<BR>
<BR>
<KenRoney@aol.com> wrote:<BR>
>     You have a good memory.  Best of the Journal-Volume 1 (1979)  Has the<BR>
> article "Mining the Asteroids" that you remember.  Also, the "Beltsrike"<BR>
> module from the early 80's has a lot of data and detail.  The GDW board<BR>
game<BR>
> "Belter" came out about the same time as Traveller, and although not set<BR>
in<BR>
> the official universe, was a hoot to play, if kind of heavy on<BR>
bookkeeping.<BR>
>     For hard data on asteroid mining, I can recommend a visit to the<BR>
> Permanent.com website.  It is a great space resource development source.<BR>
All<BR>
> of the angles and details get covered, and there are links to a lot of<BR>
other<BR>
> excellent sites.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you Ken, www.permanent.com is an excellent web<BR>
site for Real Life(tm) asteroid mining information.  Would<BR>
whoever else posted in response to my query please<BR>
repost that URL with the more RPGable stuff?  I seem to<BR>
have lost the original post.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:35:35 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Asteroid Mining (Was: Re: Mars exploration)<BR>
<BR>
At 04:54 AM 12/20/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>Thank you Ken, www.permanent.com is an excellent web<BR>
>site for Real Life(tm) asteroid mining information.  Would<BR>
>whoever else posted in response to my query please<BR>
>repost that URL with the more RPGable stuff?  I seem to<BR>
>have lost the original post.<BR>
><BR>
        Hi, Jason!<BR>
        I think that might have been me.  URL is in my .SIG....  Pick the<BR>
[House Rules] button, and its at the bottom of the page.  Let me know what<BR>
you think.  I have done a couple of play-tests with it and it seems to  work<BR>
fairly well from both "pay the bills" and actually role-playing<BR>
opportunities perspectives.  Let me know what you think.<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:00:46 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: the north american union<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 00:37:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>
>From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: the north american union<BR>
><BR>
>It has been written:<BR>
>>>Actually, how the Union occurs is unstated as it's<BR>
>not the focus of the<BR>
>game.  However, i figure the Canadians got so sick of<BR>
>hearing us Yanks<BR>
>bellyache about how awful our Presidents are that they<BR>
>offered us aUnion.>><BR>
><BR>
>I refer people to my earlier posts mentioning the<BR>
>eventual liberation of the americas by the British<BR>
>Commonwealth. THAT is how the Union occurs:)<BR>
><BR>
>Remember the War of 1812? The USA _lost_. It will<BR>
>again!<BR>
<BR>
True we didn't suceed at the land grab. And we lost all<BR>
of the battles except the last one (the battle of New<BR>
Orleans - fought 2 weeks after the peace treaty was<BR>
signed.) But we got two very important concessions<BR>
from the Brits: 1) The british agreed to stop press ganging<BR>
american sailors into the royal navy, and 2) The British<BR>
stopped supporting the Indian tribes to the west of the<BR>
US ( a significant concession in terms of US expansion.)<BR>
<BR>
I supose you could say, in modern terms, the US lost the<BR>
war but won the peace.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav - What are the different interpretations of the<BR>
Frontier wars in history texts from the various polities<BR>
involved? Do historians in the Spinward Marches hold<BR>
different opinons of the causes and results than<BR>
historians from Core? Same Questions for the Solomani<BR>
Rim war and the Pacification Campaigns.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Old version - Build a better mousetrap and<BR>
the world will beat a path to your door.<BR>
New version - Build a better mousetrap and<BR>
some @$*% will build a better mouse.<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:40:33 -0000<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: No-Firearms Situations<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Has anyone put their players in a "Enter the Dragon" type situation?  i.e.<BR>
>No firearms, no lasers.<BR>
>Strict hand-to-hand and limited melee weapons?<BR>
><BR>
>hmmm...I guess most bar fights count.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
It happens occasionally. On Zila, in the Traveller Adventure, for example.<BR>
We were so intimidated by the Law level that we didn't even try to get a<BR>
body pistol through. Other high-law worlds and the occasional no-guns<BR>
Highport.<BR>
<BR>
And of course (plug alert!) the action in The Khiidkar Incident takes place<BR>
almost entirely in the absence of firearms.<BR>
<BR>
It's fun sometimes when the gun-nut realises that he doesn't have Brawling<BR>
and is finally in a fight where HE's the wimpoid. Or when someone pulls a<BR>
body pistol and everyone drools enviously.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:01:08 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: OT<BR>
<BR>
<< No offence to our army men (both of you) but it would be<BR>
 something of a cake-walk for the U.S. to take over Canada. >><BR>
<BR>
IIRC, the last time we invaded Canada we got our heads handed to us (War of <BR>
1812). I don't count that Fenian thing in the 1800s, as that was not carried <BR>
out by the US government.<BR>
<BR>
<< Apparently  plans have been drawn up on both sides of the border for just <BR>
such<BR>
 an eventuality.  >><BR>
<BR>
Dunno about the Canadian side, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a <BR>
plan in a dusty file in the pentagon somewhere on what to do if Canada is <BR>
taken over by some hideously hostile enemy. And, of course, there is "Plan <BR>
Crimson" or whatever it was called from the 1930s.<BR>
<BR>
<< Do<BR>
 I remeber correctly that there is an American founding document (I don't<BR>
 think the constitution itself, but soemthing related) that specifically<BR>
 allows for Canadian provinces to becomes states?  >><BR>
<BR>
Not that I know of -- beyond the provisions for territories becoming states, <BR>
but that's in the constitution.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:40:26 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)...<BR>
<BR>
The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au> wrote:<BR>
> From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
> > I'm always confused by caucasians' inability to tell<BR>
> > one asian race from another: usually, I get it about<BR>
> > right (though some chinese look korean).<BR>
><BR>
> Okay, I have to ask this after hearing that.  I am a typical white<BR>
> anglosaxon Aussie male.  I am one of those people you mention that cannot<BR>
> distinguish a Japanese from a Korean from a Chinese.  I know ALL my<BR>
friends<BR>
> have the same problem, but I must say, my family and I have hosted 18<BR>
> Japanese students between the ages of 10 (one boy only), and 15 to 22<BR>
years<BR>
> of age, both male and female over the last 6 years, with stays from 1-week<BR>
> to 5-weeks.<BR>
><BR>
> Of ALL 18 of these Japanese students, not one could tell the difference<BR>
> between the Chinese and Japanese that worked in the local Sushi Train<BR>
> restaurant.  Add to this their friends hosted by other families that we<BR>
> often had outings with and that makes 36+ students that couldn't tell, and<BR>
> add to this the adult teacher Escorts that couldn't tell (in fact, one TE<BR>
I<BR>
> have become close to and correspond with regularly, told me flatly that he<BR>
> couldn't tell a Korean, Chinese, or Japanese from each other when I once<BR>
> asked that question) and you are starting to get a higher demographic<BR>
still.<BR>
><BR>
> So, what I'm asking is, are you extremely aware of such racial differences<BR>
> in appearance to those Asian races, to be able to tell such things, and<BR>
are<BR>
> all those Japanese we dealt with ordinary, or are all those Japanese just<BR>
> ignorant of something common and you are normal?<BR>
><BR>
> I know for myself, that I have Irish, Scottish, and English friends, blond<BR>
> haired and blue eyed, that if you didn't listen to their last names<BR>
(Meehan,<BR>
> Gilmour, etc.), don't look particularly Irish, Scottish, or English over a<BR>
> blond hairer, blue eyed German friend (Kurtt) that I also know well?  In<BR>
> fact, put two of them together and the German bloke and they look like<BR>
> brothers!!  How do you tell?  What's the secret?<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that there are some folks who notice such<BR>
differences more easily than others.  Until recently, I have<BR>
not been around many asians, yet with my limited<BR>
experience (TV mostly), I can usually distinguish between<BR>
Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Viet Namese, and Other<BR>
Orientals.  I can also distinguish between many different<BR>
"Native" American groups.  I get most of them right (or<BR>
very close - tribal afinity wise).  I can even usually tell the<BR>
difference in an Englishman, a Scott, an Irishman and a<BR>
German.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that this ability is part of the general pattern<BR>
recognition ability that some folks have and others don't.<BR>
I see patterns in almost everything.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:55:16 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
Does a "Grandfather clause" mean I can keep my Droyne distintegrator?<BR>
<BR>
 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Senior Staff Writer and Assistant Line Editor,<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
 Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon * Dominion Tank Police * Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:55:56 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Please, children (a term I use advisedly, as I remeber seeing Woodstiock on<BR>
> the evening news), this is a PG13 list and while I'd dearly like to discuss<BR>
> the use of grav plates in suspension techniques, doing so might cause moral<BR>
> umbrage. Or something.<BR>
<BR>
Which reminds me, the Spofulams never did answer my question: is a meson<BR>
micro-explosion more of a "thuddy" or a "stingy" thing???  <BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:27:34 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: the north american union<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/20/99 4:23:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< The Battle of Montreal pretty much under-lines that the US forces<BR>
 were poorly trained and led by inexperienced officers.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Winfield Scott would ague that his brigade of regulars was an exception...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:33:20 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Robert Conley <estar@toolcity.net><BR>
Subject: United States<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody have any idea what form the United States is in 1100<BR>
imperial. What happened to the states? What would the ethnic population<BR>
look like. <BR>
<BR>
I would figure that the individual nations would continue as entities<BR>
under<BR>
the Terran Confederation. Much like the states did after 1789 under the<BR>
consitution.<BR>
<BR>
But after the fall of the Terran Confederation and the formation of the<BR>
Rule of Man what happened to the US under the Terran Mercantile Community<BR>
and the Old Earth Union<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:38:07 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: War of 1812 (now w/ ObTrav!)<BR>
<BR>
From what I've seen in documentaries and so on, the war of 1812 in North<BR>
America was a half-hearted battle between two forces that weren't really<BR>
all that interested.  The British had to pull some of their forces out to<BR>
fight Napoleon, some Americans saw the chance to grab some under-defended<BR>
English territory, there were some nasty skirmishes and then the British<BR>
came back and retaliated.  The initial American thrust was never really<BR>
pushed through or they could have done a lot more damage.  Once again it<BR>
was a lack of political will that was the determinant.  Likewise, the<BR>
British counter-attack wasn't exactly carried through to the fullest or<BR>
they could have really hurt the states.  <BR>
<BR>
The part I can't understand was that with the British closing on<BR>
Washington, the minister of war just kept saying to the president of the<BR>
time that "they'll never go for the Capital".  He had no reason for this<BR>
assertion, and the president didn't push him on it.  When the British got<BR>
there, no one tried to stop them.  IIRC, they went up to another American<BR>
city, there met some serious resistance, and therefore decided to call it<BR>
off. (All from memory, feel free to correct)<BR>
<BR>
Having said that, I think the Canadian/British side clearly won, having<BR>
sacked the capital and all.  I just don't see it as a particularly<BR>
glorious moment in our military history (assuming there can be glory in<BR>
war at all), as we were basically allowed to walk in.  Mind you, folks in<BR>
Halifax see it differently.  They seem quite proud that the local<BR>
university was founded with money looted from the US in that war, and that<BR>
the local government house is the longest standing leader's residence in<BR>
NA because "the White House would have been, but we burned it down in<BR>
1812." (nearly direct quote from Halifax tourist web-site). Silliness,<BR>
IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, enough of this OT stuff.  Here's an ObTrav:  Are there any small<BR>
border states of the Imperium that have a similar history with them?  Is<BR>
there a moderately long-lasting Vargr band that once sacked Regina long<BR>
ago and still hails itself as the only ones to "successfully invade the<BR>
Marches"?  Or better yet, in the early history of the Imperium, did anyone<BR>
take what is now Capital, and holds that as a proud moment in their<BR>
military history?  <BR>
<BR>
Charles C. (aka Chuck the Canuck)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:42:26 EST<BR>
From: Tascelt@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Wild Geese, a mercenary ticket<BR>
<BR>
The very best book on mercs has got to be "Phule's Company" by Robert Asprin. <BR>
 Plus it's already in a sci-fi setting.  <BR>
<BR>
T<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:59:19 EST<BR>
From: Tascelt@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: War of 1812 (now w/ ObTrav!)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/20/1999 7:35:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< <BR>
 Having said that, I think the Canadian/British side clearly won, having<BR>
 sacked the capital and all.  >><BR>
<BR>
If that were true, then we here in the US would be part of Canada now.  This <BR>
is one of real life's examples of how real war is not like "Axis & Allies".  <BR>
Sacking the capitol does not mean you won the war.  Both sides were not <BR>
disinterested as you suggest, it was more like both were unprepared.  America <BR>
was a fledgling nation, not ready physically or financially to fight another <BR>
war and it had incompetant people sprinkled through the government.  The <BR>
british wanted a real war but had over strung themselves.  <BR>
<BR>
Lack of political will had nothing to do with it, nor was it an american <BR>
chance to grab british territory.  The brits started with the invasion and <BR>
then realized that Napoleon was going to be a tougher enemy than anticipated. <BR>
 They could not fight two major wars and so they chose to take on the closer <BR>
enemy.  The yanks saw the brit drawel and said fine, we'll follow up to <BR>
prevent future invasions.<BR>
<BR>
This is off topic so I'll have to add, the brits used Vargr units during <BR>
their sacking of Washington.  The yanks responded by forming a treaty with <BR>
the Yrggyyyagsytelo Aslan clan.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
T<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:20:19 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: the north american union<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com [mailto:Sethkimmel@aol.com]<BR>
> <BR>
> << The Museum at West Point disagrees, or at least they put a <BR>
> better spin <BR>
>  on it.<BR>
>  The section on the War of 1812 starts off, "At best, this <BR>
> war could be <BR>
>  called a draw." >><BR>
> <BR>
> I agree. Our regulars could go toe to toe with the Grenadier Guards. <BR>
> Unfortunately, our army was mostly militia, and militia that <BR>
> was horrid to <BR>
> boot...:-(<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
As has been stated before, the US definitely lost the 1812 war.  <BR>
<BR>
The British burned the White House and the Capitol.  <BR>
<BR>
We, unfortunately, rebuilt them.<BR>
<BR>
After two wars, the score is tied at:<BR>
US: 1<BR>
UK: 1<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1535<BR>
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